Born a sinner~how do you deal?

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Born a sinner~how do you deal?

Post by Guest » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:15 pm

Do you feel guilty for going to second base with your boy/girlfriend? Do you feel horrible when you forget to send out thank you cards? Do you feel guilty for taking a second piece of cake when everyone else had just one?
If you answered yes to any of the questions above then you just might be qualified to be a die hard christian. If not, then how do you cope with being born a sinner?

After dinner this commerical came on and I don't know what it was for but I believe it was to sell the new edition of the "holy" Bible. The commerical talked about how the book says that everyone's born a sinner yet no one feels guilty about it. I was insulted by what it was stating and I just wanted to hear some other opinions. 200 word minimum please.

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Post by FyreGarnet » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:45 pm

I think that this type of thing makes humans sound so much worse than they really are. There are definately some really aweful people out there, but by eating a second piece of cake or something, I think that is just over board. That second piece may mean to the cook that he made a really awesome cake, right maelroth?

My point is we make mistakes, and we should learn from them, not be punished or feel guilty for them.

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Post by scoia » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:56 pm

yipe...scary.

Well, I was raised a roman catholic, and I generally feel the religion (christianity, catholicism in particular) kinda makes your life out to be like a french diction test. You start off with a perfect score (unless you're a woman), and loose points as you go. Eventually everyone runs out of points, as you tend to get penalised for basically being human. Once you've run out, back to confession to clean the slate, grab your bonus points, and resume trying not to live.


I think I've been playing too much pinball...

Anyway, I have always held that it's all basically a perversion of normal behaviour. I believe that everyone should feel and take responsibility for yourself and your life, but without shame. How screwed up are you going to get if you are taught that your body, your life, is essentially sinfull.

I used to be more tolerant of christians, but I've now gotten to the point where I want them to realise what they're actually ascribing to. So many of them are so ignorant, and support this church which pushes so many EVIL things. And they don't know about it, or care.

It doesn't seem to make things any better that there's such a climate of religious intolerance at the moment. At least where I am, anyway.

Ahh, there's no limit to the time I can spend ranting about the doctrine of sin...

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Post by Guest » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:36 pm

The one thing that bothered me about the commercial is, what do you do about the word innocense? How is a child born with sin and still be considered innocent? It just doesn't make sense.

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Post by morgana » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:11 am

Well, he's "innocent" because he has yet to commit a sin of his own. He's born with sin because eventually he's bound to do some sinning of his own, not to mention the very act that created him is a sin. At least that's the way I think they justify it. I have never been able to understand how an act that creates life can be a sin though. For Goddess' sake, it's only the way we reproduce!! You don't see animals getting all hung up on this stuff do you? :roll: ](*,)
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Post by Stormy » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:15 am

The idea that humans are born sinful & will BE sinful, no matter what, is, IMHO, something that HUMANS wrote into their good book and their Christian belief system as just another way to control the masses. It's a lot easier to bend someone to do your bidding if they are feeling guilty and worthless and as if they need to make up for something. Not so easy to force someone to do your will when they are comfortable in their own skins, confident of the love of their deity(s)no matter what they might do (since they ARE part of their deity) and feel that they are personally responsible for their actions and how those actions impact upon themselves and the community. Which gives you all a very good idea why Christianity has tried so hard to kill off Paganism and is feeling so threatened by it again. Goodness me, just how are you going to get a Pagan to feel so guilty about their horrible sinfullness that they will empty their pockets into the offering plate in the hopes of gaining some degree of "goodness"?

Do I commit "sins"? Yes.

Was I born to do so? No.

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Post by socialgreen » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:50 am

Xtianity is an off shoot of Judaism and Judaism influenced Islam's creation. Now, remember this, all three are Middle Eastern Religions. These three has the concept of "sin." All other religions do not. I don't get bummed out by their preachings anymore. If people want to be Xtian then that is their choice. However, there are many different sects of Xtianity who cannot agree on what scripture says. So, the Fundies are trying very hard to discredit the more Liberal Xtian viewpoint to make their views the standard in America.

We already went through how Xtianity was first to seek converts on a peaceful and volunatary basis before it started forced conversions on Pagan Europe through political action. Today it is Protestant Fundalmentalists who are trying to repeat what the Roman Catholics did in the past by the politicalization of scripture to force people, through law, to abide by their standards of moral ethics. Yes Stormy, it is a battle to control the masses with the Old Testament and to harm the Earth Mother. I can understand why the Gardnerians and Alexandrians want to remain hidden.
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Post by Lotus » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:53 pm

X-ians have gone too far with this extreme. Lacking manners is not a sin. It is socially rude to have the last piece of cake in that situation but, it does not make you a naughty sinful person. Social graces have nothing to do with religion (yes, there are exceptions; there are always exceptions).
A christian friend of mine had a conversation the other day that most of the evangelicals are taking some Catholic Cannon laws and twisting them (yes, many evangelicals do consider Catholics to be "not christian enough"......a testiment to their goofy faulty logic).
For example, abortions have been performed for many years even by christians themselves and no where in the bible does it speak out against them. However, in 1955 Vadican (sp?) I declaired that all abortion or birth control is against christian/catholic beliefs. So, the abortion/any birth control = bad sort of thing is the warping of Cannon law!

We are returning to the times when monks whipped themselves for having sexual thoughts.

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Post by melina » Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:44 pm

What I learned is that people are born with sin because of Eve and the Tree of Knowledge (always blaming it on the woman). Because she convinced Adam to eat the fruit, and they felt Lust and Shame we are forever cursed by their sin. Basically a sins of the father story. That's why Jesus had to be crucified, not to wash away our sins, but to allow us to receive forgiveness (yet to figure out how they decided his death would solve anything, but whatever).

I feel guilty when I don't send thank you cards, but that has nothing to do with Christianity. And why feel guilty for going to second base if it's your b/f or g/f? I mean dear God and Goddess it's okay to be a sexual being, we all are no matter how much the Christians want to deny it. Besides, it's not like making out is gonna get you pregnant. And in my family, if you didn't get to that second piece of cake, that's just too bad. And they are definitely die hard X-tians.

Now the commericial should have said : If a monotheistic religion that requires you to strictly adhere to a holy scripture and worship both your God and his martyred son (now doesn't that sound somewhat Polytheistic?) sounds right to you and is in your heart, you could be a Xtian.

That's the only thing that matters; whether they feel it in their heart. Not how many freaking slices of cake they eat! Just my opinion.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!-

Isaiah 5:20

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Post by Kiril » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:34 pm

Depends, i personally don't even know nor care what sinner actually implies, so i disregard it as some giberish invented by a group of people who where afraid of nature, named it god, and started worshiping it in hopes there will be no more thunder. Thunder doesn't care though.

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Post by davisherm » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:35 pm

Man is by nature a sinner. mmmmm OK, how to prove it?

If you watch a group of chimps in the wild and then watch us so-called sinners, you'll notice that we don't have any behaviors that aren't shared with the chimps, our closest relative in the primate family, and scientifically speaking that's what we are - primates. So if man is by nature a sinner, then doesn't that mean the monkeys are also sinners by nature? Are the monkeys going to hell too?

How come the missionaries aren't going out to the zoos to preach the word of their god to the monkeys? They'd have a captive audience (:lol:) and obviously the monkeys need god too. Or have they already found god? Didn't the monkeys have a song that went something like, "Now I'm a believer"? I think so. That wacky Davey Jones, why didn't he tell the rest of the monkeys?

Have I mocked the fundies enough yet?

Let's actually look at this by the argument my parents would take. Human beings are aware of themselves. We have free will and make our own choices. Which means that we consciously decide to act on our feelings and thoughts. The thing that makes it a sin is when we do something that Mr God said we can't.

Except we don't actually have any proof that god ever said those things. We have man's law. And as we all know, man is quite fallible and capable of making stupid laws - All men are created equal. Except for the slaves because they're black. And oh, the women, because they're women and obviously inferior to men. How long did it take us to wake up and fix those two? And that's here in America, supposedly the greatest nation on the planet.

But bad laws and my parent's definition of sin aside, how can simple human nature be considered a sin? We are complled by our biology to spread our seed and continue our line. Raging hormones are a way to further the continuance of the species. But we're taught at an early age to supress those feelings because they're wrong. We're only supposed to feel that way for the person we marry.

Which is all well and good. And in a perfect world, it would be great if everybody practiced abstinence until they were married. But in a modern world where 50% of marriages (USA only, I have no international stats available to me) end in divorce, what good does it really do? But no, universal abstinence will never be attained. Hormones are simply too hard to resist for some people. And supressing them and the feelings that come with them will only lead to trouble.

The number of teen pregnancies is at an all time high. We have millions dying of AIDS and sick with HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. We have rapists, we have child molesters - I won't even go into the Catholic Church... although by mentioning them in this manner I have alrady made my point. Zing! All because we never taught our children about sex. Just that it was something to be ashamed of when we had those dirty thoughts, and we should lock them up deep inside where nobody will see them, because it's wrong. Except that according to the Christian faith, even THINKING these things is a sin. And the ability to think is what sepperates us from the rest of the primates. I just disproved the main thrust of my own argument. Crap.

So there you have it. You can't escape it. Man is by nature a sinner. As long as we believe the laws set down by somebody else's god, we're going to be crippled by our guilt. What does it matter if you have unclean thoughts about a member of the opposite sex? Well, if you're single. Social mores state that it's not right for married people to go around lusting after people other than their partners. What harm does it do if you use curse words? Granted, it's not nice to swear in front of the children, but it's not like a word is going to hurt anybody... unless of course it's a true curse word, in that case, I hope you know what you're doing ;)

Anyway, my battery just hit 4% power and I have to go recharge. I hope somebody enjoys my ranting, rambling whatever the heck I just wrote.

Somebody want to save me a seat on the bus to Hell? I might be running late and I don't want to lose my place.

Blessed Be.
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Post by Stormy » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:54 pm

davisherm wrote:Social mores state that it's not right for married people to go around lusting after people other than their partners.
Gotta totally disagree with this one, it's like what you said about not teaching kids anything about sex except that it's bad - which, HELLO, it isn't ;)
Personally, I don't think it's the "lusting" that is wrong or will get you into trouble, it's the "doing". Probably not a good idea to lust after someone who you work with or know on a personal basis, cause that's just asking for the "doing" to come along. But as for a man checking out a Playboy and getting all fired up, or seeing a total stranger at the beach and having a hot thought, or thinking impure thoughts about a movie star - who cares? I know I don't because if something like that gets my husband fired up I get the benefit :-D And I really don't think my husband minds one tiny bit if, after watching Vin in Chronicles of Riddick, I am suddenly, somehow, really in the mood. :roll:
Just my two cents - but hey, if I'm going to hell because I am married and I think that Vin is the hottest, sexiest thing and he's NOT my husband - well, Davish, someone better save me a seat on that bus too :-D

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Post by Kiril » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:44 pm

If being sexually aroused by other women aside from your partner is wrong, then i really shouldn't be thinking about chocolate while i'm currently eating this panini, and by that logic i really should've dumped my girlfriend because she's touchy touchy with a friend of hers, which i rather get stabbed than do because he has a ps2 and my girlfriend is my only way i can reach it's amazingness.

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Post by Rain ForestMoon » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:09 am

Greetings,

I believe the concept of being born a sinner (or with original sin concept) was invented to make a particular religion more "saleable".
What would you do if you wanted to promote a mouthwash product? Of course you would try to convince as many people as possible that they have bad breath. And that your product can fix that.
Put crudely, the concept of sinner or original sin is no different. Convince a lot of people that that's what they are or what they have got. And tell them that you can fix if for them. By following your particular religion. And your religion gets to be very successful.
If you are high up in the priesthood of your religion you then should be very pleased....
I know it seems strange, but many years ago (and even today) there are so many competing religions and/or sects about. And the ones that get the most followers are the ones that do the best PR work and the best manipulation of the believers and potential believers.
If anyone tries to tell me that a baby is saddled with original sin and its soul will roast in hell for eternity if it dies before being baptised....then I know that their religion should be avoided.
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Post by sapphireseve » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:10 pm

Original sin eh? How can you possibly consider a newborn a sinner? What in heavens name could they possibly have done? This leaves people in a bit of a catch 22. I mean your born a sinner and your suposed to spend the rest of your life tyring to become as holy as god himself, which by the way is NOT possible and we're told that. So not only are we horrible the second we exit the womb, but there is no possible way to redeem ourselves. Why do we bother??? So ummmm.....Davish I get the window seat. I wonder if the bus to hell is anything like riding the bus to school everyday. There is a class system All the nerds, geeks, and goodies sit in the front, the above that wanted to cool sat in the middle, and of course all the cool kids sat in the back. Or atleast that was my experience in grade school and highschool. So i'm envisioning the bus to hell as something to this affect. The not so bad people sit in the front, the middle is reserved for those who thought they were bad, but really they belong up front and the back.....thats reserved for the Pagans! I'll bring the sacrificial goat WOOT!!! :-)
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