Harm None?

[Jescissa]

I'm so glad I 'm not perfect like you guys, I 'd be frightened of choking on my own smugness.

Smug? Who's being smug? We all have our vices, but why should someone get sympathy when their vice goes wrong? People pay National Insurance and smokers get taxed to the hilt in this country, I'm not saying they don't deserve to get medical treatment when they need it, they've mostly paid for their treatment twice over through tobacco duty anyway.

Yes, all humans get diseases, it's mostly a natural part of living and being part of the cycle of life, but humans also bring things on themselves. Yes, exactly - it's not karma, it's biology. I don't believe people get lung cancer from smoking just to teach them a lesson...it's because their lungs are affected from all the nasties in the smoke.

[morgana]

I have to agree, I'm not sure where you're coming from Eretik. First, I'm not Wiccan, so your reference to it doesn't really apply to me anyway.

Second, I never said anything about karma either. I simply said that when it comes to people who excessively abuse their bodies by putting harmful substances into it (alcohol in my example), and then end up with a disease because of said abuse, I cannot feel sorry for them. ESPECIALLY when they use their illness to manipulate others, as was also the case in my example.

I am not perfect, far from it in fact. I'm no health nut who eats all the right foods and excercises the right amount of times a day and doesn't ever do anything wrong. I've smoked occasionally, and drank occasionally, and I love fatty and sweet foods. However I do try and balance myself out and eat good things when I've eaten something not so good.

And I do understand that it's hard to beat an addiction, but when a person turns down help not just once, but NUMEROUS times, and doesn't seem to care when the doctors tell him or her that if they do not stop what they are doing immediately they will be dead in a year, well why should I feel sorry for them when they can't even be bothered to care about their OWN life? This isn't smugness, this is simply the refusal to be seen as a possible enabler for the person with the disease.

And if it's my comment about wishing the cirrhosis would overtake my dear cousin that set you off, that would be because (as I said) he has used up his parents (my great uncle and aunt) to the point that they are shells of their former selves, and I'd like them to be able to enjoy what remains of their lives. They are the elders, and they should be enjoying retirement right now. Instead, they are taking care of a grown son and being driven into the poor house because of it. And yet I should feel sorry for my cousin, because he's choosing to drink himself to death? I think not.

[Crazy Healer Lady]

Interesting thread. Amazing - only on these forums can you have such a controversial discussion without it becoming a flaming session.

Eretik, I strongly suggest you do not start attacking us here. These are the opinions of a few wonderful forum members, and although they are wonderful examples of how diverse and beautiful Paganism can be, their personal viewpoints do not reflect those of all Pagans.

To throw in my two cents on the original topic: Harm None, to me, definately means to yourself as well, not because of Karma, but because we all have beautiful bodies, beautiful souls, and to trash it is a waste of an amazing gift.

I do feel sympathy for those who smoke or drink themselves to death, unless they are taking others with them (such as Morgana's 2nd cousin), because it is a hard life they have chosen to lead. Life is just one lesson after another, and I personally believe we choose the lessons we need to learn before incarnation.

I see so many people in Hospice dying of lung cancer, of bowel cancer, of problems they have, in hindsight, caused themselves. They are fantastic people and myself and the other Hospice volunteers and nurses do everything we can to make them comfortable as they prepare to pass on. How can I not have sympathy, when they are having panic attacks, crying fits, and then allow you to share in their last moments while they go on the porch to smoke? I have beared witness to some incredible moments, ones neither of us - the resident or I - would have traded for the world.

On the other hand, I can understand where you are coming from when having no sympathy, because life is too short to waste fretting about the life choices of others.

To each their own.

[Jescissa]

Interesting thread. Amazing - only on these forums can you have such a controversial discussion without it becoming a flaming session.

It's great that no one has jumped on anyone else so far And I do have to stress that I know my opinions are mutable, I'm only 21 and I'm looking at a whole long stretch of life ahead of me. It's only natural that as I grow my opinions will change right alongside that. In a year, 5 years, 10 years I could feel completely different about this and I'm open to that, I'm not afraid of changing and growing. This is just the way I feel right now!

[Kitsune]

I would like to say that my sympathy stops if you can't take responsibility for your own actions.

I am greatly overweight, a problem started in childhood, when my family made me feel guilty for eating. At 8, I simply didn't understand why... Mind you, I've always tended towards eating more than I should as well... It doesn't help.

However, I don't expect other people to take care of me, because I have screwed up. I take responsibility for my actions, including over-eating.

And when I take more action then just healthier eating choices, that will be my victory as well, and not anybody else's.

I feel that if you're taking responsibility for your actions, you deserve help... I also feel that if you've been offered help a couple times, and continually refuse it, then you're on your own.

However, I'll still be there for them, if they request help later.

I simply don't have the time to be worried about people who don't want my help anyway. I simply keep an eye on the problem and move on. And if that's considered cold, well, it doesn't bother me one bit!

On a side note... I am constantly amazed about how open we can all be with each other, and not get into flaming wars. Everybody here is so accepting, that even if they disagree with the message, they can put their irritation to the side while discussing it. This is a tremendous feeling of empowerment, to be able to speak about mature subjects, in a mature fashion, without anybody cutting in and saying that because you're not politically correct, you're wrong. I love my online board... They often understand me better than my biological family... (Except of course, Grimwell, but then again, there's I reason I'm marrying him )

[fatale]

My faith actually helped me quit smoking - once I extended the "harm none" rule to myself, it became very clear, that smoking was not one of the things to do! It's harmful to myself.
While I still drink alcohol every now and again, I do not get drunk. Often, I don't even drink at all and volunteer as the driver.

I also changed my eating habbits. I avoid fatty food, at lots of fruit and vegetables to my diet and drink lots of water - I don't think I could be vegetarian or even vegan. I love fish and sea food too much to give it up.
I work out every weekday after work for about an hour. It helps me destress and I "meditate" (my daughter calls it, in the zone )

It's amazing, but my faith led me to a healthier life style. That doesn't mean I never splurge myself or over indulge in chocolate, but I surely do it less than before!

[Willow]

my 2 cents on the original topic...
It definitely includes yourself, because anything you do rarely affects only you.

For example, if I don't take care of myself and I kick it way younger than my life partner, I have put them through uneccesssary pain. Same thing with suicide, I am hurting others far more than me. As for health, my partner and i are intimately connected, when one of us slips in exercise or diet, the other tends to as well. We have a responsibility to each other to be healthy and happy so we can help make the opther healthy and happy.

As for bad habits, I affect those who look up to me. My kids and all the people I volunteer with. If I smoke, my kids see it and it becomes more acceptable and may contribute to them smoking. And how devastated would I be if I my child died of lung cnacer before I did. If they see me standing in the mirror complaining how fat I am, then I am partly (no matter how small) responsible for teaching them that habit, which could lead to eating disordered.

We never know who our actions will affect and all the concequences, so to me , harm none is inclusive.

[underlilith]

"harm none" includes oneself and all others on all levels imaginable (ex: physical, mental, emotional, spritual, etc.)

[Sìle]

Does this include yourself? Or, because it's YOU you can pretty much do what you want to yourself?

I'm not sure - like smoking, over eating, not eating, drinking alcohol ... all the things that are bad for you? Besides health reasons, is it ok to "mistreat" yourself? And how does your example effect otheres - friends and children?

Harm none isn't part of my beliefs or practices, so I am well within my rights to drink, smoke or otherwise inflict damage on myself, but I don't.

[Lotus]

The way I see it is that everything we do can potentially be harmful.
Everyone's body is different.

Bb
Lotus