Harm None?

[fatale]

Does this include yourself? Or, because it's YOU you can pretty much do what you want to yourself?

I'm not sure - like smoking, over eating, not eating, drinking alcohol ... all the things that are bad for you? Besides health reasons, is it ok to "mistreat" yourself? And how does your example effect otheres - friends and children?

[forgotten oceans]

I don't think it's ok because it is you. I've never really thought along the lines of the harm none thing though, but I do think that our bodies are vessels to be cherished. What can harm the outside can harm the inside given time. As a recovering screw up I can safely say hurting oneself is wrong even for the right reasons, excluding sacrificing yourself to save others, that might be ok, it depends... anyway, where was I?

Oh, just because it's wrong doesn't mean we're not gonna do it. My mother knows she's gonna die of lung cancer or emphazema(sp?) but she still smokes 2 packs a day. I know razor blades are not the answear to my problems, but it still happens. We all have vices, I think that's what becoming a better person is all about, learning to not only realize the world around us, but also the world inside of us too.

'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle'

-- Author:unknown

[Jescissa]

Harm none definitely includes yourself. This life, this body is a gift and you're clearly abusing it by over-eating, smoking, over-drinking...etc...

I know it sounds bad, but I have little sympathy for smokers who get lung cancer or alcoholics who get cirrhosis of the liver...because they're signing up for that future with every cigarette they smoke and every vodka they drink. Yes, lung cancer is awful and it's a terrible way to go and all ill people should be cared for, but there's I have no sympathy there because they knew it could happen to them. My mum is a heavy smoker and whilst I know I'd be devastated if she died of lung cancer...I'd know it was all her fault. We've wanted her to give up...but she carries on anyway, so I know her smoking is not my responsibility.

My mum, however, now recognises that she doesn't have the authority to pollute our house with her smoke. She lives with four non-smokers and we don't want to share in that, so she takes responsibility for her smoke and goes outside. It did take a while to get her out there and it was our complaining that did it, but now she does it quite willingly.

I'm certainly no angel, I bite my nails, I gorge myself stupid on chocolate and I know that if I get a nail infection (never happened so far) or I get horrible spots, I have only myself to blame and I don't expect sympathy.

[iriseyes]

So could you consider those diseases a backlash or karma thing..


I mean look if you smoke and get lung cancer is that your punishment.

If you over eat you get fat, punishment???

[Jescissa]

I don't think these things are active punishment from the divine...but they're an accepted consequence of smoking and overeating. Everyone knows now that if you smoke you run the risk of lung cancer, heart disease etc so if you still choose to smoke it's your own fault if you get these diseases.

It could be a punishment from above, but I prefer not to think that way. Natural diseases are possibly a consequence of breaking a moral law or something, but diseases you get through doing deliberate harm to yourself are just something you have done and you shouldn't pin the blame on the divine for your mess up.

[iriseyes]

I don't think these things are active punishment from the divine...but they're an accepted consequence of smoking and overeating. Everyone knows now that if you smoke you run the risk of lung cancer, heart disease etc so if you still choose to smoke it's your own fault if you get these diseases.

It could be a punishment from above, but I prefer not to think that way. Natural diseases are possibly a consequence of breaking a moral law or something, but diseases you get through doing deliberate harm to yourself are just something you have done and you shouldn't pin the blame on the divine for your mess up.

I mean I wouldn't blame them, I was just thinking.. With just starting out I find I have alot of questions.. When something like this is presented, I think of ways to connect this to pagan/wiccan thought.. It was like of like a what if?

[Jescissa]

I mean I wouldn't blame them, I was just thinking..

I didn't think you were! I just think that we are so in control of ourselves and have to take responsibility for our own health and not have it totally rest on other people or the Gods. We're the bosses of our bodies!

What I think is that the divine know what will harm us and what will help us and the first cases of these diseases are warnings to us humans from the Gods saying "if you continue to smoke, you will get ill like Mary did", so they set up a natural deterrant like lung cancer and then left us to make our own minds up. There are some people who stay away from smoking because lung cancer is so awful, whereas there are some people who believe it won't happen to them, and they continue to smoke.

[iriseyes]

I mean I wouldn't blame them, I was just thinking..

I didn't think you were! I just think that we are so in control of ourselves and have to take responsibility for our own health and not have it totally rest on other people or the Gods. We're the bosses of our bodies!

What I think is that the divine know what will harm us and what will help us and the first cases of these diseases are warnings to us humans from the Gods saying "if you continue to smoke, you will get ill like Mary did", so they set up a natural deterrant like lung cancer and then left us to make our own minds up. There are some people who stay away from smoking because lung cancer is so awful, whereas there are some people who believe it won't happen to them, and they continue to smoke.

I was one of those who did smoke and think aww hell.. But then I realized one day it wasn't all hell it really could happen.. I have been smoke free since Jan 17, 2007, well with the exception of one accident.

[SageWolf]

But here is the thing, Smoking, is hard to quit, I'm a smoker, I started when I was 12 and I've tried to quit sevral times, but to no avail.

I don't over imbibe in alchol but I do drink occasionaly, The last time I drank has been over a year now, My grandparents died because of drinking, I grew up with them always drunk always staggering, it was hard to live with,

I'm not saying your wrong, but I'm just wondering have you had a family member get lung cancer or cirrousis?

I understand that smoking is bad for you, as well as drinking, well drinking in access, if you drink a glass of wine a day or a beer, it's actually good for you, But to say you give no quarter to those who develop lung cancer and cirrousis, means that your not open to it.

My thoughts are if you we affected by a family member who got those diseases then you would change your tune.

SageWolf

[Jescissa]

I understand it's hard to quit something that grows to affect the very balance of your body, I also understand how habits can grow to be a part of you and not know how to shake them off when you've had them for so long. Smoking is hard to kick, alcoholism is hard to kick, but it can be done. My Dad started smoking at 14, but has been smoke-free for two years...my Mum started at 18 but can't make herself quit! I don't think it matters how long you've been doing it, what matters is how much a part of you it has become. If it's all tied up in who you are, you might never be able to quit.

If my Mum ended up with lung cancer of course I would be devastated because I was losing my mother and I love her, but I would know that she had done it all to herself. I would be devastated that she would be dying, but I would also be angry with her because she was the one who lit up all the time, she was the one who polluted her own body. Yes I'd be so sad at losing her, but sympathy? I don't expect anyone to give me sympathy if I do something stupid that hurts me, so why should I give sympathy to someone who knowingly pollutes their body day after day with the real possibility of death as a consequence?

Of course I'd never be as callous as to say "I told you so", that would be unforgivable.

On the other end of the spectrum you get people who have done nothing wrong their whole lives and end up with lung cancer or worse. It happens out of the blue. My friend's mother died of bowel cancer and she was vegetarian, teetotal and lived off entirely organic produce! It can happen to anyone, but if you go out there and court it, I don't think you really deserve as much sympathy.

[morgana]

I'm with Jescissa on this one. I have a second cousin who is an alcoholic who has drank himself into the hospital more times than I can even count. He has cirrhosis of the liver and is still alive, but STILL keeps drinking. On top of that, he takes absolutely NO responsibility for his own actions, and will use his illness to guilt his parents into giving him whatever he wants, be it money, or even keys to their car.

I have absolutely no sympathy for this man. He is grown, probably at least 35 years old, but still lives off his elderly parents. He has used them so much that it has forced my great uncle (his father) to come out of retirement at nearly 80 years old and get a job in order to keep supporting him and bailing him out. Granted, I also think that my great uncle should have cut him loose long ago, so as to avoid all this, but I do understand that as a parent, it's hard to turn your back on your child, but there are times (such as this) where it is necessary.

In short, I do not feel sorry for my cousin, in fact there are times when I hope his cirrhosis will finally overtake him, so that he will leave my great uncle and aunt in peace for the remainder of their lives. Certainly it sounds cruel, but he knows exactly what he is doing to himself every time he puts an alcoholic drink to his lips, and he simply does not care. He has been offered help numerous times, but has either refused, or left the program early. There is only so long you can feel sorry for an individual like that, before you realize that as an adult, he is making those choices for himself, and that if you continue to feel sorry for him, he'll sniff you out and try and mooch off of you the way he has off of his own parents.

This is the problem with most addicts. If you feel too much sympathy for them, they'll use it against you. So my answer to that is, I'll try to help to a point, but if it is turned away then I have done my duty, and the choices they make are theirs, and so are the consequences to those choices.

[SageWolf]

And I agree, but there are circumstances that are beyond anyones control, I don't believe in coincednses, I believe everything happens for a reason.

Now not to feel sympathy for someone who got lung cancer because they braught it on themselves. I think thats wrong. You can morn that person, and you can even feel bad, but if you are even able to say I told you so, if it was to your mum, then what does that make you as a person? I'm not saying you are that type of person, but to even think it at that time,

I'm hoping that one day I can quit, I don't want to do it with drugs, My dad quit 14 years ago and has been smoke free ever since, my mom quit 3 or 4 years ago, She started and quit sevral times, the last time she was smoke free for 9 years and I think that was the longest time she did it

I was a single parent at one point in time, I took my kids to the DR because they were uncontolable, and I couldn't figure out why, They diagnosed my kids with ADHD, My daughter was borderline, so they put both my kids on stratra, And the DR also looked at me and said I was depressed (YA THINK) anyway, he asked me what I did and blah blah blah. well he put my kids on drugs (I should note it didn't even last a year) and then said that I should keep smoking because it was my stress relief and I needed it because of what I was going through with the kids. He told me to not quit until I was ready. And Well I've tried and tried I haven't done so yet.

I will also note as well, When I was pregnant with my children, I tried to quit smoking, even before I got pregant. I was a high risk pregnancie with both my children. My first born (my son) because I was just so young and he was big, and I was also gestational Diabetic but with my son it went unnoticed. Well anyway, they told me NOT to quit smoking,. they asked me to cut down on it but at the time, I was high risk and anything that could harm him (I was 4 months at the time) would. So being addicted to the drugs in ciggarettes it could harm him. They told me the same thing with my daughter.

Well I think I went on enough

SageWolf

[Jescissa]

I'm with Jescissa on this one. I have a second cousin who is an alcoholic who has drank himself into the hospital more times than I can even count. He has cirrhosis of the liver and is still alive, but STILL keeps drinking. On top of that, he takes absolutely NO responsibility for his own actions, and will use his illness to guilt his parents into giving him whatever he wants, be it money, or even keys to their car.

Thanks! I thought my opinion would be universally unpopular I just know that people who continue to do harm to themselves in the face of all medical knowledge can be such a drain. They are willingly putting themselves in harm's way and by giving them sympathy and money I think people add to the problem. Of course cancer and heart disease and cirrhosis are nasty things and I'm not saying they don't deserve medical help, but I don't feel sorry about their illness. It's their own fault they are in that predicament in the first place!

You can morn that person, and you can even feel bad, but if you are even able to say I told you so, if it was to your mum, then what does that make you as a person? I'm not saying you are that type of person, but to even think it at that time

I did say I'd never say "I told you so", I'm not that heartless Going through cancer is hard enough without your family ganging up on you and of course if my mother was ill I would care for her and stuff, but I wouldn't feel bad that she was ill because it's not my fault, it's hers. I'd feel bad if she was dying only because she's my mother, not because of her illness. That would be her doing.

I guess my hardline tack against smoking is that I know my mother smoked all the way through being pregnant with me and with my brother and both of us were ill when we were born. I had asthma and I was a tiny baby all because of her smoking, and my brother had to be born by c-section because he was in distress, he was losing oxygen during labour, he also turned out to be epileptic. Luckily both of us have turned out ok (although I'm only 4'11" tall and I'm never going to get any bigger, and my brother will have epilepsy for the remainder of his life.)

[Eretik]

Humans get diseases, it's not karma it's biology. I'm so glad I 'm not perfect like you guys, I 'd be frightened of choking on my own smugness.I thought Wicca was a religion of caring types, too caring for me, often, in all honesty. I was wrong. Where is your humanity?

[forgotten oceans]

No one said anything about perfection, and this is the Ethics board, Wicca's a little further up.

'We're all trying to live, some of us are just doing it faster.' -heh, Me.