Not certain where this should go... Discussion on the Gods

[Kitsune]

Okay, so Paganism is an umbrella term for those who don't believe in one of the other major religions, at least exclusively.

We generally are nature loving nuts, and tolerant of everybody.

Here's my question...

In the conversation with our Christian boy Maximus, everyone has said that the Christian Gods do not exist.

Most Pagans believe that Intent changes reality.

Christians for centuries have used their intent to create these deities.

Now I'm not sayting that they're all powerful, or even remotely like what they are currently portrayed as, but then, look at the greeks... you always say your Gods more powerful than the competion.

Now I've always believed that while these Gods may exist, I've come to believe in my Pagan worshipping that they simply don't care about non-worshippers. Why bother trying to send a pagan to your version of Hell (or Heaven for that matter), when that person's Deity may come and demand their worshipper back? If I was a goddess, I think it would simply be too troublesome to try to exert my influence that way over non-worshippers.

I feel like this may be a blasphemous comment, but how do we decide which gods are really gods and which aren't? In my Sociology course, I was taught that all religions started off as a small not widely worshipped cults. Since the divinity is in everything, by classifing this force into individual gods we simply made this power more accessible for people who have problems with the idea of something eternal and infinate.

My view (as I've said) is that although the Christian Gods may exist, they don't affect me any more that the Greek Gods do, because I don't fall within their Spheres of Influence. I fall (religiosly) under the Sphere of my Deity, and other Gods only have influence over me if I allow them to have it.

This is getting long-winded so I'l stop now, but I really want to know your views on how the system works. I hate defending the Christians, but in this case, we're denying Maximus his version of the Divine in an attempt to simplify what we believe. (Maximus, if you do read this, please get yourself to either a doctor, or a priest. You need help, and you don't seem to want to listen to the good advice that was offered earlier, and we can't seem to help you as you misconstued what we believed in).

Just to re-state, because I feel I've brought up Maximus's posts a little too much as example's, This is NOT a discussion on what we've commented on to Maximus, but a discussion on how we believe the systems of divinity works.

[-o< Now here's hoping that this post doesn't get a lot of angry replies...

[Kystar]

I never said that the Christian GODS didn't exist...just that the aspect of their faith called the "Devil" Who tempts man into SIN doesn't exist. Since I am not a follower of their Gods, I do not believe in their ideas of sin, and therefore, a creature designed to pull me away from god has no meaning.

[Rain ForestMoon]

Interesting topic...

Same with me as with Kystar: What I did say was that the Devil does not exist.

So, in a way it depends on the way you look at it. If you regard the Devil as part of the "christian pantheon" then, yes, technically I did say that one of their Gods do not exist. However (most) christians do not regard the Devil as a God, but as a "fallen angel", whatever that may be.


Getting away from the specifics of the case you mention, though, I am of the opinion that any God is a manifestation of The Divine. Different people percieve The Divine in different ways. So, who am I to say that someone's perception of The Divine is wrong? Perception is a very personal thing, and in some way everyone of us lives in a different reality, so what is real to me may not be real to someone else.


I have had the experience, though, that (most) christians have no hesitation to tell any non-christian that they are worshipping a "false god". (Seeing that the christians also say that there is only one God, the idea of a false God is totally illogical, though.)

[morgana]

Interesting topic indeed. I think I would classify the devil/Satan as a sort of diety, because there ARE some people that do worship him and/or believe in him. That would classify him as some form of deity, even if he's not a diety that I personally connect with. But then again, as someone else said, all dieties are just different manifestations of the devine, so in that sense, all dieties are both real and unreal at the same time, since they all come from the same source, and are in essence, just small parts of the greater whole.

[Kitsune]

That's what I was trying to get at. He may be a "fallen angel", but a lot of the teaching of the faith give him powers of a God. And then there are the Satanist's and such who do worship him, and have increased his power.

And yes, I find it a very interesting topic. Just to see how we all see it. I love perspectives. Any one else have any perspectives on this?

[forgotten oceans]

I don't play for the Red Sox, so I won't be in their dug-out when I strike out. I think the Xtain God lives as much as my Gods do, their angels give off energy the same as my nymphs. And some where there is a coven of Satanist witches praising Satan and on all probabibilaty its the same night I'm praying to Ereshkagal. I agree with Kitsune about spheres of influance and it's too much trouble for Gods to squabble over small matters as who gets more love/prayers from mortals. Of course, I also don't think Gods help those who don't help themselves and especialy without proper briberary...uhh, I mean offerrings.....*looks around shiftily, waits for smite* Don't get me wrong, Devine loves us and all, but if I get into a mess I try everything to get out on my own. If for no other reason then to avoid the 'I screwed up, I'm sorry, can you help' talk. lol

But in the end, aren't they all just parts of a whole? Irregardless of what you call your God and I call mine, aren't they all connected and intertwined to a much larger being? Weren't they born from the infinate void just as we were? So in a sense, they are us. Makes me think we bore them and not the other way around. *waits for more smite*

Kitsune, I'm kinda glad you brought this up, it's a good topic and given the Maximus thing, very fitting, good on you for being brave and playing devils advocate! =D>

[katsu]

But in the end, aren't they all just parts of a whole? Irregardless of what you call your God and I call mine, aren't they all connected and intertwined to a much larger being? Weren't they born from the infinate void just as we were? So in a sense, they are us. Makes me think we bore them and not the other way around. *waits for more smite*

I doubt any of the one's we call God(ess) would smite you for telling the truth. Smite you for the fun of it, pehaps.....but not for telling things like the are

[Kitsune]

Kitsune, I'm kinda glad you brought this up, it's a good topic and given the Maximus thing, very fitting, good on you for being brave and playing devils advocate!

Literally in this case!

But I do find it interesting...

I mean, we would be intolerant if we said that simply because we don't agree with a deity that he didn't exist or had no power.

Christians tend to hate me for classifing him as one of their deities as well, and then when I ask them to tell me where my reasoning is wrong they are usually hard pressed to answer.

[Rain ForestMoon]

Seeing that the word telerance (or intolerant) came up:

I personally do not feel that as Pagans we need to be "tolerant" of the views of other religions in the sense that we humor them by pretending that we believe their God(s) exist if we believe that they don't.
This goes especially for Christians (and Muslims) who are about the most intolerant groups of people when it comes to telling someone who does not believe exactly as they do that they are doomed to eternal damnation.
(We should be tolerant, of course, in the sense that we leave them to their belief and do not hinder them in their practice of said beliefs, provided they don't attempt to interfere with what we believe and with what we do.)

We Pagans are a very diverse lot:
Some Pagans are Henotheists, in the sense that they accept the fact that there are Gods other than the ones they worship or honour.
Some Pagans do not recognise other Gods than their own.
Some Pagans have only a very nebulous concept of The Divine.
etc, etc.

So, depending which of the above groups a Pagan falls, so will their reaction to Gods other than their own differ.

[Windwalker]

I reckon Yahweh exists. I see no reason for him not to, if all the other gods exist (and I think they do, I just don't worship them all. I'm only one woman, after all).

However, I don't think Yahweh's prophets wrote things as they were. I don't think he's omnipotent, or any of that nonsense. I can't be bothered going through the bible and working out what's true and what's not.

Mustn't he be awfully lonely without a pantheon of family and friends (and enemies)?

As far as Satanism goes, from what I gather most Satanists don't worship Satan. Some of them follow the concepts he represented, others are Church of Set and so forth.... many seem to worship pre-Christian dark gods, and so forth. Others don't worship anything at all. To be honest the whole thing confuses me. But what I've been able to glean from various sources is that most of them don't worship the Devil. Some do, of course, but most don't. And I'm not sure whether those that do actually count him as a god.

All I can say is, in my travels I have never come across any place that people go to get punished for their sins, and I have never heard anyone speak of a Devil or Satan. If he exists, I don't know where he hides... and if Paradise Lost has a trace of truth to it he isn't a very happy being, so if anything I suppose we should pity him.

[Willow]

Well I might as well throw my two sense in.

(1) I do not believe in Satan, I never liked the idea, I have come recently to believe that Satan is nothing more than an anthropomorphisation of evil charactersistics, because that is soemthing we humans do. We anthropomorphise things. Have you ever stubbed your toe and yelled at a table? Asked it why it was there? We all do it.

(2) I think that the word god is our human atempt to coneptualise the great flow of the universe. One of the reasons I still adhere (marginally at least) to some Christian beliefs is that I think Jesus had some insight into whatever energy it is that pushes the universe. So did Buddha, some sages, maybe Mohammed and maybe really great people like Stephen Lewis. That being said, I don't think I have it right yet, nor does anyone else. the fun of being human is figuring things out.

(3) As for Saying other gods don't exist, or to take it another step, critiquing the belifs of other religions I think there are a few things to look at. (a) We have to scientific proof gods exist or do not exist, frankly, if they do, i bet they think science is too limited to understand them. As such, in any sense, all we can say is that we believe that gods exist and that is enough for us, and that is why we can't force it on others because the proof is personal, not scientific (b) I think beliefs have to be open to criticism, ultimately, if someone comes on this board and says the goddess is a being who totures humans for fun, odds are a few of us would politely critique this view. Criticism prevents complacency and I like when you guys call me on things, it keeps me thinking and developing.

So I am not sure if I answered anything but I got to rant a little. Good topic!

[runewulf]

Kitsune, you're on the right track there at the beginning, to say the least... all dieties exist, to one extent or another, whether or not they exist or how much influence they have over a given individual, well, that would depend on whether or not that individual worships in that pantheon or works with that diety regularly, at least as a rule...

Now, there is a fairly wide held belief by those who are fairly deep into the mystical paths that there is a form of Diety above all others and or that is all others, of which the others are facets there of or faces of... that through belief, they come into being and are connected to this Unknowable Diety as an aspect that we have created...hence our Mothers/Fathers, our hearth god/desses, smith, healing, music, inspiration, divinitory, magic, etc god/dess/es.

Another thought is that gods are just flat out created by human thought and belief and the more thought/emotion/belief that goes into them, the more powerful they get.

Another theory, though less subscribed to, although interesting if enough research is done on it, is that all gods come from the same root gods. This is interesting because when you look at function and or personality and or physical attributes and or combinations thereof, you can usually find links between gods and goddesses across pantheons and beliefs. This is heavilly true throughout europe, with deep enough digging and research, even true to extents so far in europe and asia and somewhat in africa and there are similarities to native american dieties with some of the older asian dieties. Of course, if you look as some of the theories of origins of civilization that have been most recently put forth from research and studies, it makes a fair amount of sense. And when you come into the Abrahamic religions, well, you knock out most of the gods, leave in the grumpier aspects of the ALL Father, then when you get into Christianity, add in the Bright Son (Lugh, Baldur (add your glowing Sun God here)) and Trickster diety/spirit (lucifer/satan/name of your choice).

Of course, on the trail of the god of evil, if we trace back to the oldest writings of the bible, there really isn't much on hell of satan or any such. That crap all came later when the church was building and trying to gain more and more power and influence. Translations here adding changes to justify this, additions there to gain power there, etc.

Just some things for everyone to think on.

Beannachta!

[Windwalker]

**clears throat**

Okay, no one else did it, so I had to. The whole "scientific proof of the existence or non-existence of god" thing made me think of the Babelfish. And thus I quote the Guide:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
-Douglas Adams, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[SageWolf]

I Belif that All Gods Are only as Powerful as our Belief in them, To a point, I think there are some things that we have no control over, but I think it's basically the same in All Religions, They get their power from how much they are believed in, (I think this Idea Started when I watched Merlin believe it or not) What I'm saying is that To A Point we are our own Gods/esses I do have a Divine power that I believe in But I also think That in the old times Paganism was almost destroyed because 90% of them were Forced to become christian and worship them, so the Pagan Gods took a Vacation so to speak.( I really hope I'm making sense)

Anyway Christian God and Christian Devil are real to the Christians AS The Horned God or Thor are real to us And I can go a step further and say that Jesus is an actual man not the son of God (I've read the DeVinci Code and I agree with alot of it(the Aurthor Has proven there are things out there like the Priory))

I am gonna go for now, I just woke up and I doubt I'm making any sense

SageWolf

[Kitsune]

Now, there is a fairly wide held belief by those who are fairly deep into the mystical paths that there is a form of Diety above all others and or that is all others, of which the others are facets there of or faces of... that through belief, they come into being and are connected to this Unknowable Diety as an aspect that we have created...hence our Mothers/Fathers, our hearth god/desses, smith, healing, music, inspiration, divinitory, magic, etc god/dess/es.

You mean other people believe this too? I've had such a hard time explaining how I can believe in the existence of different Gods & Goddesses and the Unknowable divine and still have a problem with them being the same person. Logically, I know that it could just be different facets of the same Divinity, but I've always prefered their seperate aspects.

This is a great discussion. Keep on everybody... =D>