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Vigilante Witch-hunts

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:11 pm
by Debbrah
Quite often stories of vigilante groups (more rarely official justice systems/courts) punishing "witches" end up in the news. Invariably the response on pagan message boards is outrage. A "how dare they do this just because they think the person is a witch- barbarians/savages/animals/etc" sort of response.

Usually, however, the person is being accused of commiting a fairly serious crime via "witchcraft."

Most of the places where these stories originate tend to deal with suspects of crimes pretty harshly, and most of the places are torn between somewhat Westernized official justice systems and the local beliefs. The enforcement of the official system varies greatly. Often it seems like most of the outrage in the article is that the people are foolish enough to still believe in magic, not that they are acting without due process. Many of the pagan responses in a way also reflect this same additude. The only people who seem to really believe in magic are the ones who are part of the lynch mobs.

If we really believe, don't we need to believe that magic could commit a few murders? If it can't, I don't know what I'm practicing it for: how can it be expected to heal something serious if it can't effect the body enough to kill?

Due process is still an issue.. but when it is a crime that offically is not, what are they supposed to do?

Anyway, I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Re: Vigilante Witch-hunts

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:15 pm
by Lotus
Debbrah wrote:how can it be expected to heal something serious if it can't effect the body enough to kill?


I disagree with this but, it is my own, you do not need to be able to harm in order to heal. Which is why magic is split between left-handed and right-handed magic. I asked the healers I know their thoughts on the matter (asking cause I'm not a healer myself) and of their replys this stood out the most: "A true esoteric healer knows that the only person a healer heals is themselves".....think about it, this makes the most sense to me.

They tell me that part of being a healer is to be in balance to begin with and you take the pain within to eradicate method....has a lot to do with this person walking the path of a yogi.

Others heal by redirecting energy from one chakra to another believing that illness has to do with an energy imbalance.

(mind you that I give this information second hand so, if there are errors then it is due to my lack of understanding).

Vengeance is part of the left-handed paths so, my answer is not to get Vengeance. The temptation for vengeance has almost changed my path when I seriously considered sending my $80 out and applying to join The Temple of Set. I admit strong temptation at times to do this when the idiot wiccan author was/is slandering me to people....I'd so love to curse/hex/or bind him but........I digress.

If I had a legal serious threats and/or murder my solution would be to force the authorities to care.

This is me and my thing....not at all right for all.



Re: Vigilante Witch-hunts

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:40 pm
by Stormy
OK, maybe it is just me because I've had a long day, but I am not completely understanding what it is that you are saying, specifically...
Debbrah wrote:

Usually, however, the person is being accused of commiting a fairly serious crime via "witchcraft."

Are you referring to persons who are pagan who have committed actual crimes or persons who are pagan and are being falsely accused of using their magical abilities to commit crimes?

Debbrah wrote:Due process is still an issue.. but when it is a crime that offically is not, what are they supposed to do?

Are you referring to people being persecuted simply because they are pagan - as in that is the crime which is not a crime?

Sorry for asking for explanations but, as I said, it's been a bit of a day for me and I'm not processing with my full RAM right now.


Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:20 pm
by Wbdsgnr1
sorry, just a quick post. I didn't read any of your posts, just the question cuz im in a hurry.

But I would do all 3. You have to do whatever you can to protect your friends/fmaily and most important, yourself. And doing anything less would probably be a problem and make some ppl feel guilty that they didn't do more. Especially if they were too late and something extreme happened (like someone dying)

so, yeah i would do all 3.

blessed be

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:39 am
by Luciferish
There are multiple issues here.. I don't think its as simple as Debbrah puts it in here. She is asking (i think) what is to be done with people who use magick to harm others, should we be sympathetic to their cause due to non-magickal reprocussions?

Well, being of the old-school so-to-speak, a witch should know how to both kill and cure with magick, simply because in the name of protection and self presurvation you must know the nature of both kinds of magicks. This whole "Left-Hand, Right-Hand" path crap is so far out of context these days its not funny. First of all, if you work a Circle, you are of the Left Hand Path... Unless you work Widdershins... I won't explain that statement, if you don't understand what I mean then you obviously have not been in very many rituals.

If a Witch cannot see, understand and manipulate a Curse then how are they to turn one? Healing Cancer and turning a Wasting Curse are two different animals...

A healer that takes the illness within themselves to cure it is a fool, they will eventually succumb to the ailments of all they cure. Sorry being a healer for a couple of decades I learned this lesson the hard way.

Frankly If a witch has killed someone by magick then the intended target had best earned the hatred and anger that it would take to create such a spell. If not then the caster will self-consume eventually as a result of the casting. Many people with a naieve understanding of magick would not understand the level of malice and hatred required to create such a spell, so its easy to accuse, wrongly, people of doing it.

If they get caught and persecuted for this act of magick then they have failed to do it successfully. If done correctly nobody would know what happened, death would seem as natural as breathing.

However when I read that people in South Africa "Multi" cults are killing and harvesting children for body parts I am sickened and these people should be hunted down and killed.

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:47 am
by Kiril
This is ridiculous. How can a justice system prove or even suspect witchcraft in a crime if they don't know anything about how witchcraft works?

What kind of an idiot sees a corpse and decides that the person died from a terrible curse? (even if the person really died from a terrible curse).

And if the offender say, astrally projects to commit crimes, he wouldn't have any chicken heads in his home to be used as evidence. lol

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:09 pm
by Luciferish
I think Debbrah is just trying to get my goat.. Pun intended.. she knew this would raise my hackles..

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:58 pm
by davisherm
I'm not sure if this is what she was going for, but I've read many cases where the fact that somebody is a witch was used against them in court. For instance, the man who lost the custody case against his wife. Now, there may have been other issues, but it was mentioned in the courtroom that he considers himself to be a witch. The way I read that article, his religion was one of the deciding factors in the court's decision to grant custody to the mother. Does being a witch mean he's not going to be a good father to his children?

Now similarly, if a witch has committed a crime, I see no reason to mention the fact that they're a witch. Unless, of course, the crime has an actual connection to their practice of their chosen religion. I don't remember the last time I read, "John Doe, a member of the Protestant Faith, is currently held without bail for the suspected murder of his wife, Jane Doe." in the newspages. What does his religious preference have to do with anything? Nothing that I can see. But if he was a witch... if he was a witch, we'd see this: "Local Warlock Arrested for Murder of Wife" which is far more sensational, don't you agree?

And while his religion may have no connection to the murder itself, the mere fact that he's not a christian and worships *gasp* other gods or worse yet, THE DEVIL will automatically taint him in the eyes of the people. He's a black soul, given to savage rites and bloody murder. Good luck in court Mr Doe. Granted if he did it, he deserves to hang. But what does his religion matter? It doesn't.

-meh, if anybody can understand that ramble, let me know.

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:13 pm
by Debbrah
Luciferish wrote:I think Debbrah is just trying to get my goat.. Pun intended.. she knew this would raise my hackles..

Not just yours... anyone who wants to play. ;)

Part of what I am asking: these news stories about "witches" being tortured or killed in various countries usually happen (no surprise) in places where the people (at least a significant percentage) REALLY believe in magic. They believe that the person is a threat or has hurt someone through magic. We are usually pretty quick to condemn them for a rough vigilante justice, but what would you do if you believed someone was causing harm in some way the law could not deal with. For something other than magic.. what about someone who was smart enough to avoid leaving anything a court of law could accept as evidence? You are certain, for whatever reason, that this person killed someone, but have no proof for police or judges. What do you do?

Since the conversation has already started going there ( I was going to ask this later after a few responses...) What if there was someone local to you who you KNEW was causing harm via magic? Lets go dramatic: someone who caused a death through magic. Obviously our legal system is going to laugh if you bring it to them. What do you do? (Assume the dead person meant something to you... friend, relative, etc) What would you do if you had no magical recourse?

I know I would be tempted to commit some of the acts I've read about... if someone hurt my kin and legally there was nothing to be done, I would be seriously looking at other options.

Lotus... I'm taking your tangent to another board (Magick/Energy Use) to start a new thread. The whole hex to heal matter.

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:54 pm
by Wbdsgnr1
Lotus -- i truly believe that to heal you must harm. You must harm the negativity and the bacteria and the virus and all other "bad" things causing the person to be sick. If you kill the sickness than you heal the person.

Hence the saying, "A witch who can't hex, can't heal."

blessed be

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:10 am
by Luciferish
I would do as any good witch would do (good in the sense of able, not benevolent). Get to know the person who did this thing, find out how they did it, then do it to them... simple eh?

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 7:33 pm
by Debbrah
Wouldn't expect anything else from you, Luc ;P

Re: Vigilante Witch-hunts

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 7:34 pm
by Kendrah
Lotus wrote:I disagree with this but, it is my own, you do not need to be able to harm in order to heal.

An illness, a virus, is a living thing. To correct it is it kill that being. You pick yourself over the virus and you kill it to put balance to yourself. (Whether or not your chakra's and whatnot were out of balance to create this problem.)

Ask any pharmatist, any doctor, and you bet they'd know how to kill you. They need to know in order to reverse the process and find out how to heal what's wrong. This is how you heal something.

But moving on, yeah, Witchcraft can/ could kill. It's just how do you prove who killed who by what means becomes the issue. Of course if someone was out to "get me" or my friends, I'd use every available means to protect myself. I'd hope everyone one.

But these are just my silly thoughts.


Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:50 am
by Lotus

It is not hard to know how to kill someone but "understanding" why that person is killed is a different matter.

To understand death does not mean that one should go around killing people.

Actually in the book I am reading there is a ritual taken from Egyptian curse tablets that can kill someone if done for seven days instead of the 4. This keeps them in a nightmare state for days (such is Set to send horrific dreams). However you need the head of a pig and the ability to pronounce stuff like "IO ERBETH IO PAKERBETH IO BOLCHOSETH IO BOLCHOSETH SABAOUM KOKLOTOM PATATHNAX"

I could test and see if this works by trying to perform this ritual....Any volunteers?(joking) :evil: :lol: :evil: :lol: :evil: :lol:

Proving this would be a difficult matter unless they found the pig head.



Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:47 pm
by Debbrah
Lotus wrote:Proving this would be a difficult matter unless they found the pig head.

Depends on what is meant by proof. Something the courts could use? That would be tough. Something that a witch could use though.... might just be a matter of knowing who to ask.