Secrecy, teaching, and seekers

Is a love spell really the equivalent of rape?

How much do you feel should be open to common knowlege?

1) If someone asks, they deserve to be told no matter who they are
4
13%
2) Trad secrets are Trad secrets... tell nothing to non-initiates
3
9%
3) There are some things that shouldn't be shared with outsiders, even sympathetic ones. Other things are fair game
5
16%
4) There might be reasons to keep secrets from fundies, but not from fellow pagans
6
19%
5) Some things shouldn't be shared without the right relationship being established first, being able to trust them, knowing them fairly well, maybe some oaths and bindings.
11
34%
6) Other: Please explain.
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32

Al Rischa
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Post by Al Rischa » Mon May 07, 2007 5:02 pm

Hmmm... a very intresting topic of conversation.... I have a very mixed view on this I do believe that if someone is searching for the answers you should help them out and tell them what you know, but in these days doing so could be dangerous. I guess you would have to know that the person "deserves" to know, but who are we to diside who is worthy and who is unworthy? does that not undermine our belives? I guess that leaves us with only one question, what is s/he going to do with this information? But why should we give away freely what we worked hard to find in the first place, is it not the learning that is more important thn the knowledge? So many question, I just don't know.

Magick flows in strange patters, things often work them selves out in the end, so surly we should not be giving away anything but just pointing people in the right direction and making sure they dont stray to far from the path.

Al.

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Post by Ragnar » Mon May 07, 2007 9:24 pm

Hey Al Rischa, you sure have been doing some digging around here, haven't you?

Good stuff though.

I am torn between "tell 'em nothing" and my purpose of teaching people who have an obvious ability, to learn and become usefull members of the Pagan/Heathen community.

As to "Don't tell the Fundie"........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I LOVE Fundies!!! :roll: :-D :-D ;)

I tell them everything I feel they need to know, like...."You are a total twerp", or "The Gods will get you for that", or just basically "Go away with sharp jerky movements" (I am sure you can read between THOSE lines. :lol: ).

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Post by Al Rischa » Tue May 08, 2007 4:11 am

Yeah i'v been digging alright :D

Intresting views Ragnar I guess if the person have "obvious ability" maybe its our "duty" to help them?

I'v never really come in contact with these Fundies, but i'm sure there a nessisary evil we will all have to deal with. When I finaly meet one of these religious fanatics I will tell him where to go though. Usally I avoid the "Religious recrutment" by simply telling them i'm bussy, usaly christians.

Al.

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Post by Ragnar » Tue May 08, 2007 8:44 pm

Aye. But the odd one or two will not take "no" (however phrased :lol: ) as an answer.

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Post by Arcanum Owl » Wed May 09, 2007 2:46 am

Hmmm interesting topic I'm disappointed I didn't see it sooner.

To everyone who has said yes to sharing freely I would like to ask if you have ever been in a group of practioners that has turned sour. I have, and amongst our books at the time, we had some rather dark and very potentially unsafe material. I refuse to mention anything else to do with the titles of these books, thankfully they are located in my bookcase and there they will remain.

I am still living the backlash from this group dissolving, and I have had a lot of spiritual help doing so. I'm extremely lucky that I have a certain view on the world and the planes of existence which allows me to do certain things many people consider impossible. I would dread the poor soul who ends up in these sorts of situations without any sort of aptitude or help.

People come in all sorts, short, tall, fat and skinning. Not all are good willed and strong of mind. Some do stray and with this field of practice, some people do see it as a form of power to somehow "lord" over others. I'm not trying to scare or convince you that you shouldn't share knowledge, by all means do so to the better-ment of all but still remain cautious. Every time a question is asked should you not be asking yourself who is asking the question?
"Project what you are and what you feel, not what you think!" - quoted from yours trully.

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Post by Al Rischa » Wed May 09, 2007 5:08 am

An intresting tale Arcanum Owl, it very much underlines the dangers of knowledge. But how can we know what that person is going to do, we can't always know who is good and who is bad... can we? But if we just tell nobody the information will eventualy be lost, I guess passing on knowledge is maybe a risk we must take? Maybe divination could be brought into this maybe then we would know who to trust? or maybe we should let people find out for them selves.

Still more questions i'm left with that are with no answer. This is all very intresting.

Al.
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Post by SageWolf » Wed May 09, 2007 9:13 am

I have a friend who has known I was pagan from almost the start, she was raised Christian, and then she started dating this guy who is pagan as well, and then she came over last week and asked me to help her with "converting" to paganism. I told her I don't mind at all and so we are planning a Blue Moon Ritual for her dedication,

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Post by Kitsune » Wed May 09, 2007 9:24 am

I never saw this thread either. :-?

It's very interesting...

I firmly believe in creating spells yourself. Therefore, I have no problem sharing all of my information.

The stopper is that if they are not ready for the information, then they won't be able to understand it. If they are ready, then they will.

Like the mysteries of ancient Greece. They had one law with punishment for the lesser mysteries, but nothing for the greater mysteries... You couldn't tell somebody what they were... You had to experiance them to understand.

Mind you, that stopper is irritating. Grimwell wrote a spell down a while ago, and everytime I look at it I can almost see how it works and what it does, and then it's like I suddenly slam into a brick wall. I lose what I'd learned, and have to start at almost square one again. And he won't explain it.... GRRRR.... But I figure that it's because it's such a different way of doing energy work.

Mind you, I can write down the words, but the actual energy doing is something that I can't put into even symbols. I could try to explain it, but I could never write it down...

As to the whole, somebody using my knowledge for evil... :-? Well, I don't believe that my karma will be harmed for somebody else's mistakes. If they did evil with something I taught them, I will feel bad, but I also know that had I not given them the information, then they would have simply found a different "knife" to use. I would still feel bad and try to fix what happened, but I would not "take" the burden of their karma.
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Post by daibanjo » Wed May 09, 2007 9:05 pm

I have some notions on this that don't come from anything I've read but from experiences. Though, truthfully most all of what I hold dear is a result of experience.
I do not believe anyone chooses the Pagan path. I believe firmly that this is a spiritual path that chooses us when we are ready for it. Sure, there are the curious and even those who have motives less than honorable, but they soon go away and follow something else. We are here because we are in a place in our eternal development that signals us as ready for this path and the honoring of the old ones of the Earth.
As for learning, there's an old truth that when the student is ready the teacher will appear. That holds true for us all.
As for sharing, sometimes you are that teacher. How do you know if you should share or not? Trust yourself. You are the teacher because you are ready.
Just remember that we teach those who are sent our way. We do not proseletyze for the reasons I stated.
It'll be all right in the end. If it's not all right, it's not the end.

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Post by Windwalker » Wed May 09, 2007 9:19 pm

=D> Nicely spoken, Daibanjo
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

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Post by Willow » Thu May 10, 2007 6:19 am

Arcanum? You're back?

I honestly have no opinion on this. I don't think there are any secrets in my beliefs.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Post by fatale » Fri May 11, 2007 6:04 am

daibanjo - I fully agree!

A also think people don't really come up to you and say "Hey, theach me how it is to be pagan/wicca! I'm really interested in money spells and turning my enemies into frogs!" A relationship develops and even during first stages of the relationship both sides learn form each other! It's a bit like having children - yes, you do most of the practical teaching, but you grow with your childs development, you're given a wonderful chance to see the world through a childs eyes again. Similar with a "student of the craft" the enthusiasm and "childlike" faith is inspiring for the teacher and will help the "wise one" grow and learn and remember things and feelings that might otherwise be forgotten!

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Re: Secrecy, teaching, and seekers

Post by Sìle » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:32 pm

Debbrah wrote:... I've seen many complaints from seekers about having to jump through too many hoops to get to close to a group who claims to have something worth teaching. ... I'm inclined to suspect many of them just don't like having to work for what they get.
I'm inclined to agree with you. :smt042
Debbrah wrote:Should they share their information... after all it shouldn't belong to just a privileged elitist few? Do they have a responsibility to only reveal it to those of whom they approve?
Not necessarily. You might approve of someone, that doesn't mean they are ready for the information, though.

Isn't there some kind of saying in martial arts that the teacher never reveals everything, keeping one item of knowledge back, :-# in order that the student doesn't them kill them and take their place? I kind of like that idea myself. :badgrin:
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Re: Secrecy, teaching, and seekers

Post by Crazy Healer Lady » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:55 pm

Sìle wrote:Isn't there some kind of saying in martial arts that the teacher never reveals everything, keeping one item of knowledge back, in order that the student doesn't them kill them and take their place? I kind of like that idea myself.
In many traditions, it's the pride of the Master (and representation of his skill) when the student finally surpasses him. I love this, because it's evolution. Otherwise, all that you're doing is making the next generations dumber. A true Master never took on a student without confidence in their spirit anyways, and so the idea of them killing their Master was sort of out of the question. There is a great deal of respect involved in martial arts in Japan and many other countries that have continued on. If you notice, any traditions that may have had that mentallity of holding back from their students really haven't survived.
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The purpose of a relationship is not to have another who might complete you, but to have another with whom you might share your completeness. -CWG

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Re: Secrecy, teaching, and seekers

Post by Jet » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:59 am

Anyone that asks a question deserves an answer.
However what can and should be tempered is the depth and/or level of the reply.

Its true - some things are never documented, and can only be given by way of an experience. Some information is only ever transmitted with impending death of a Elder.


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