Secrecy, teaching, and seekers

Is a love spell really the equivalent of rape?

How much do you feel should be open to common knowlege?

1) If someone asks, they deserve to be told no matter who they are
4
13%
2) Trad secrets are Trad secrets... tell nothing to non-initiates
3
9%
3) There are some things that shouldn't be shared with outsiders, even sympathetic ones. Other things are fair game
5
16%
4) There might be reasons to keep secrets from fundies, but not from fellow pagans
6
19%
5) Some things shouldn't be shared without the right relationship being established first, being able to trust them, knowing them fairly well, maybe some oaths and bindings.
11
34%
6) Other: Please explain.
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32

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Debbrah
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Secrecy, teaching, and seekers

Post by Debbrah » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:35 pm

Lately on a couple other boards I play with I've seen many complaints from seekers about having to jump through too many hoops to get to close to a group who claims to have something worth teaching. Now, being part of a group that doesn't just share all it knows just because someone said pretty please, and from a few other statements, I'm inclined to suspect many of them just don't like having to work for what they get.



The more interesting question that comes up is what is the responsibility of groups to the seeker and to their information. Should they share their information... after all it shouldn't belong to just a privileged elitist few? Do they have a responsibility to only reveal it to those of whom they approve?
"There's not much that's contrary to nature if you just know how to coax her along a little."- Mad Amos Malone (A. D. Foster)

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Post by Wbdsgnr1 » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:40 pm

hhhmmm........ I dont know how I feel about this question.



Im not part of a trad, group or coven. If a trad has secrets, even if I totally don't understand why or completely agree with it, its not really my business. Especially cuz Im such a newbie.



But I think more things should be open than secrets. Or else nobody will ever know anything about Paganism or the Craft. I don't like the newbies who don't want to work hard to get what they want either, but if thats how they are than the Craft probably isn't for them anywayz. But we must help those who are on the path trying to seek out there own way ya know....



i feel like Im rambling.



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Post by Lotus » Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:36 am

Lets be realistic here, there are no real secrets...all has been said or done before. However a teacher should expect there to be a relationship before teaching.



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Post by FyreGarnet » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:17 am

I definately think that there should be some secrets for trads to keep. Other wise, they won't be able to separate out those tha aren't willing to work. I don't think it is descriminatory to do that. Provided that they do it to each person equally no matter who they are. If a person is willing to join the group, and work hard, and try to make the group better, then they should be allowed to join, continue learning and discover some trad secrets.



Hopefully this sounds reasonable to all of you, cuz I'm not sure if it came out the way I had hoped it would.



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Post by Stormy » Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:14 pm

I think that it should be like any other "intimate" relationship - establish trust first, possible get some form of commitment. I don't belong to, nor am I seeking, a group, but groups of any sort can be difficult to maintain due to personality clashes, etc. A group of Pagans/Witches is even more intimate than most groups, requires more trust and cooperation, I think if you want to be a part of one, you need to prove your worth and compatability first. If I ever seek out a group I would fully expect to be treated in such a way.



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Post by Kiril » Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:42 pm

*shrug* What good is information if they can't use it? I don't see why keep something a secret from someone who won't understand/use it anyway. And if they understand and can use it, i don't see why keep it a secret either. And why teech someone if you simply don't feel like it...

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Post by Firelord » Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:27 pm

well, the fact is that if they turned out to be a bad apple and had any remote possibility of figuring out how to use a powerful secret even years down the road, who would want to be like "HEY!! I gave that person that information! He did that because of me! I was part to blame!"... not only that, if they use it against u after you supplied them with the information while thinking that they would never be able to understand it without your help....



sometimes I act like a fool to get my way and it's such an easy thing to act stupid. If a group had a long-lost secret to the craft that could be very distructive and I wanted it I could easily act like a complete noob to get my hands on it so I could unleash it later... not like it's something I would do, but sometimes you don't know who you're dealing with, ya know? And it's like that catholic churches and junk... It's not like they're going to go unleash their secrets anytime soon.... (Like how there are paintings of Horus in the catacombs of the vatican).... If they just got on TV and told everyone and let it out that there were no more secrets they'd be crushed...



Or... it'd look really swift you teaching someone the most potent binding spell that your coven has and how it works only to have them use it on you later...

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Post by Luciferish » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:52 am

In most of the older traditions, as Debbrah knows, there are things that are "Kept hidden" or "Not Spoken". These are often either intimate details about the group itself or some aspects of the tradition being practiced that most people wouldn't understand.



Over the years we have sorted through our lore, stories and tidbits of written materials and segregated them out for people that are "In" or not, this mainly is for the ease of keeping a lid on the coven/tradition. Its very alarming to pick up a newsletter one day and find something you wrote being published under another name.



Some traditions are very secretive, others are not... The material that is being kept secret isn't usually all that much, but we also have our pet projects and recipes that are closely guarded... I can think of a half dozen recipes that I know people have that I couldn't get their owners to give up, even with a Gun and a sour disposition. These things are kept secret to protect them, and sometimes the people who may misuse them...



The funniest part of this is most of the truly secret and guarded pieces of information are coded into other things or not written at all and transmitted by Oral Tradition, which keeps a good deal of the "Outer Court" in the dark, unless they are very aware. If they figure things out that they shouldn't know its just a testament to their perceptiveness and probably an indication that they'll be initiating soon..
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Post by Kiril » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:17 am

Well, if a coven teaches someone a potent binding spell or something destructive, then they most likely use it themselves and know how to deal with it in case someone uses that against them. I never understood why teach someone the exact recipe or ritual, why not teach the basics and let them improvise if they're good at it.

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Post by Lotus » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:18 pm

Kiril wrote:Well, if a coven teaches someone a potent binding spell or something destructive, then they most likely use it themselves and know how to deal with it in case someone uses that against them. I never understood why teach someone the exact recipe or ritual, why not teach the basics and let them improvise if they're good at it.




I would have to agree with Kiril here.

What is the point? After all you could almost find everything on the internet. Heck, I could probably find the secret to my grandfather's spagetti sauce on line.



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Post by Debbrah » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:35 pm

You might be surpised how little can be conveyed online. Words don't really teach much.
"There's not much that's contrary to nature if you just know how to coax her along a little."- Mad Amos Malone (A. D. Foster)

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Post by Stormy » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:43 pm

Debbrah wrote:You might be surpised how little can be conveyed online. Words don't really teach much.


I agree and I disagree. For someone who is completely without any natural tendency towards "magick", in other words, someone who has no clue about how to connect, ground, feel the universe already, words aren't going to help them much. That sort of person really needs a teacher to help bring the words to life.

But on the other hand, for those who are already sensitive and in tune (for lack of a better description at the moment), words can give them the direction they need to find what they are looking for and to open up doors that they already know how to knock on.

Does any of this makes sense to anyone other than me :roll:



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Post by Wbdsgnr1 » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:40 pm

yes it makes sense to me stormy.



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Post by Luciferish » Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:17 pm

Well there are two sides of this....



Side 1: Magick that is created completly from scratch with all of your personal attention, creativity and imagination is the most powerful.



Side 2: Magick that has been performed in a similar form repeatedly for years, generations or centuries gains in power due to accumulative use.



Many Wiccan groups completly subscribe to the first side...



Many of the older traditions and belief systems respect the value of side 1, but having seen the power of things used over long periods of time also give respect to side 2.



Neither side is wrong, but I can attest by experience that both are quite viable and powerful. In most cases a nice compromise is very nice and workable as well. The fact is some covens have rituals that are done, such as Initiations, as closely as possible to the exact methods each time. Each initiation grows in power as a result. These rites are kept VERY secret, mainly because if they were common knowledge they would loose a good deal of their potency. To face the Unknown is a major factor in the Initiatory process, so to be able to read the Initiatory rite in a book would detract from that major aspect.



Also, don't forget, the Craft is a "Mystery Tradition", if its all public then it becomes sunday school at the local babtist church. I think its best that secrets be kept, cultivated, created and passed on in the manner they have been since the Temples of the Old Gods were in use. If we all knew how the Oracle of Delphi worked, then much of the spiritual discovery related to the Elusinian Traditions would be lost. To site one example.
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coven training info saught

Post by akilah » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:27 am

Since we are all talking of secrets and teaching, I am searching for some type of coven training manual. I have over 70 books, but I want something that will be geared toward coven training. Our coven consists of family groups that finally found a family together. Most to all have only taught between family members and now, since we are a coven, we are looking to set up a training course for new dedicants. We could use something already in existance OR make our own! Any help on this will be greatly appreciated!

Akilah
Bright Blessings and happy wishes!

Akilah

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